• Dojan@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    What I think is interesting about the word flea market is that it’s a calque in pretty much all languages.

    The Swedish word is “loppis”, which is a cutesy colloquial term for “loppmarknad.” Loppa, meaning flea, and marknad meaning market.
    Flohmarkt in German also means lit. “flea market.”
    Marche aux puces is French, where “puce” means flea, I think this might be the origin of the term.
    Japanese has the casual term フリマ (fleama), short for フリーマーケット, which is just the English term “flea market”, there’s also the term 蚤の市, just meaning “market of fleas.”

    I believe Portuguese calls it a “thieves’ market”, but Spanish, Italian, Russian, Turkish, Dutch, and Mandarin all use their own native words for “flea market”; mercado de pulgas, mercato delle pulci, Блошиный рынок, Bit Pazarı, Vlooienmarkt, 跳蚤市场.

    For all of the concepts and such that are identical across cultures, few things have universal names. Typically they enter the language as loanwords as well (e.g. karaoke, from Japanese ‘空オケ’, hollow orchestra), so the term “flea market” stands out to me. I’m sure there are lots of other similar things I’m not aware of though.


    Edit: It’s worth mentioning that other than Swedish (native), English, and Japanese, I don’t speak any of the other languages. I’ve asked a Russian-American friend about the Russian term, and a friend in Taiwan about the Mandarin term. Otherwise I’ve checked dictionaries and the like. Don’t take my word as fact, I’m not a linguist. It was just a pattern I found interesting, because the term itself is so particular. Any and all corrections are more than welcome.

    I’m also delighted by the discussion this has sparked! 💖

      • Dojan@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Thank you for sharing! I had not heard of this before. I particularly enjoyed this bit

        Farang khi nok (Thai: ฝรั่งขี้นก, lit. ‘bird-droppings Farang’), also used in Lao, is slang commonly used as an insult to a person of white race, equivalent to white trash, as khi means feces and nok means bird, referring to the white color of bird-droppings

        That’s so colourful. I love it.

        It also made me think of the fictional race in Star Trek, the Ferengi. At least according to Wikipedia that is precisely the origin of their name!

        • Dojan@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          蚤の市

          Yep! nomi no ichi. Nomi (蚤) means flea, and ichi (市) means market, no (の) is a possessive particle making it “flea’s market” or “market of flea”

        • manucode@infosec.pub
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          7 months ago

          I assume that 蚤の市 is a loan word and フリーマーケット a calque. But I don’t speak any Japanese.

      • Dojan@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        This is true, I don’t know which word came first. I’d wager a guess that 蚤の市 predates フリーマーケット, but it’s really just a stab in the dark on the basis that English loanwords feel more modern, and it feels unlikely that a calque would be created after a loanword has been widely adopted.

      • Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works
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        7 months ago

        Are you referring to Brazil Portuguese and Portugal Portuguese?

        (I’m just randomly curious. And while I’m asking,)

        In which country is it Mercado de Pulgas? Do you know if the other one uses Mercado de WhateverThievesisinthatPortuguese?

        • az04@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          In European Portuguese it’s “Feira da Ladra”, or “Fair of the (female) Thieve”

      • Dojan@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        I started talking to a dude from Brazil a couple of months ago, and was blown away just by how different Brazilian Portuguese is from Portuguese, even just phonetically. I should’ve probably mentioned that I really only speak English, Swedish, and Japanese, so any other examples are ones that I’ve dug up in lexicons and the like, so there may be terms that are direct translations but not actually used colloquially.

        I can totally see different words being used between Brazilian Portuguese and Portugal-Portuguese.

    • cor315@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      thieves market

      I’ve definitely been to a few flea markets where I thought all this stuff was stolen.

      • Dojan@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Aha! See, my first thought was that maybe it had something to do with pickpockets being present!

      • Dojan@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Is tori ever used like plaza, like the Swedish word “torg?” The way I read tori in my head makes it sound almost homophonous with torg, hence why I ask.

        • Paraneoptera@sopuli.xyz
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          7 months ago

          A number of Slavic, Baltic, Norse, (and also Finnic languages like Finnish and Estonian) use some form of this word for market. It originated in Proto-slavic and passed through Old Norse into descendant languages.

          https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/търгъ#Old_East_Slavic

          The most interesting thing is that the root appears to have borrowed into Finnish twice, once probably from Slavic (as turku) and once from Old Norse (as tori).

    • Theme@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      7 months ago

      Unimportant extra: it’s not a calque in British English, because we don’t use it (to the best of my knowledge). Like a potluck, we have the concept but not a word for it, and we don’t use the American phrases either

      We have a car boot sale, but that’s literal

      There’s probably regional exceptions

    • Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de
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      7 months ago

      “Hippopotamus” is another one. It derives from the Greek words hippos (horse) and potamos (river) and this concept of river horse is present in many different languages:

      • German: Flusspferd (lit. river horse)
      • Dutch: Rivierpaard (lit. river horse)
      • Finnish: Virtahepo (lit. stream horse)
      • Danish: Flodhest (lit. flood horse)
      • Chinese: 河马 (lit. river horse)
      • Arabic: فرس النهر (lit. river horse)
      • French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese use variations of hippopotamus.

      Tiny variations exist as well:

      • Hungarian: Víziló (lit. water horse)
      • Afrikaans: Seekoei (lit. sea cow)
      • Smallwater@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Actually, the Dutch translation is “Nijlpaard”, not “rivierpaard”.

        But, it uses the Dutch name for the Nile river, “Nijl”. So it’s lit. “Nilehorse” - which is technically the same as “river horse”, just more geographically specific.

      • Dojan@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Aye! Flodhäst in Swedish, and カバ (河馬, 河 river, 馬 horse) in Japanese.

    • kemsat@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      It’s almost like most of those languages you mentioned, had their speakers go everywhere around the world, approximately 500 years ago, and they colonized most of the world, causing many places around the world to use similar idioms…