It’s too atomized in this part of the world for anything you’re saying to take with these ‘people’. Asking a westerner to have human empathy is like asking an Israeli to not be genocidal trash. You’re better served asking a pigeon to not shit on your car.
Lmao, what a wild assumption that they could take whatever icons they like, with no basis in reality.
that’s…. exactly what they do buddy. you don’t seem the type to care for counter-examples so i won’t even try and list any of the many, many fucking instances of this happening irl
Just off the top of my head those are a few. And that’s with people holding the line and continuing to use these symbols without hate. We don’t need more people defending their claims.
The only person in this thread who seems intent on pepe being about hate speech is you. I’ve been asked in some formal settings to avoid using the OK hand sign in case it sends the wrong message. I’ve been advised by tattoo artists to avoid Nordic symbols despite the fact that I’m of Scandinavian descent. You’re enabling the worst kind of people to decide what symbols mean in our culture. Why?
Degenerate, 88, 14, the Roman salute, multiple names, the fascista, shaven heads, lighting motifs, runic symbols.
That’s just what I came up with off the top of my head. The other person is right, and I say we should reclaim every symbol because those fuckers shouldn’t be allowed to call anything their own or have anything to ralley around or identify each other with. The only symbol I’m aware of that the made was the black sun which is itself simply the ss symbol repeated around a circle, which itself is an appropriated rune.
An icon represents what the people think it represents.
An icon can also have different meanings to different people. It’s ok if you don’t like it. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that the majority of people that use or share Pepe are from one specific ideological group
Almost every meme template has been used to make alt-right nonsense, do we just abandon any symbol they pick up for their misdeeds? Or do we push back and refuse to allow them that kind of control over our culture?
Very few and far between were exclusive to the right. Pepe was. It started as theirs and continued to be theirs for a long time, in my opinion still continues to be theirs. You few fighting for the symbol’s continued use in good faith (if you are) are not the majority.
It started as a french cartoon and got coopted into the feelsbadman meme format in 2009 and then skyrocketed in popularity and mainstream use in 2015-2016 by pro-trump conservatives.
Even if it were present in every single greentext like some sort of bizarre requirement, it still would have more use by nazis and propogandists than anyone else.
Imagine unironically saying we should normalize nazi swastikas. If that’s not what it takes for you to reevaluate your stance, then you’re a lost cause.
the symbol predates Germany, initial findings date it back to 3300-1300 BC. you’re telling me all historical religious symbols in Asian countries should wiped of the icon because of Nazis misappropriating their symbol? you would literally deface ancient sites that predate nazis by thousands of years because you can only see it as a symbol of hate?
you can use context clues such as actual hate speech, nazi slogans and genocide to distinguish those that are actually racist. the whole point of nazism is to erase culture and replace it with only the “one true race”. by allowing nazis and white supremacists to appropriate symbols you’re actively giving them power.
So then, you think Nazi Swastikas without context should be allowed without any repercussions. I saw your first comment, I don’t see why you think using more words to say the same thing would make it any different.
Here are some questions: How does punishing nazis for using symbols of hate and intolerance empower them? How does allowing them to do so freely harm them in contrast?
You do not need to use a nazi swastika. A world where they are not allowed in public is a world where people feel safe and comfortable. Just as you do not need to use the frog. The frog is unimportant and only continues to exist because people like you fight for it.
Yes, again, I’ve read your comments and understood them. Maybe you’re the one having comprehension troubles, here?
I don’t see how this comment in any way argues against any of my statements. You either never disagreed with me to begin with about swastikas being bannable outside of specific religious contexts, or you want contextless hate speech to be allowed as a blanket rule. There is no in-between.
is English your first language because you either don’t understand what I’m saying or you are too ignorant to understand.
swastikas being bannable outside of specific religious contexts
that’s literally what i said. the context around the symbol is what is important. no one in south west asia sees a swastika and think Nazis because it’s part of the religious culture. just as no one sees Pepe and thinks nazis because no one normal participated in that shit subculture of 4chan except Nazis.
Let’s actually look at what happened with Pepe, he was created by an artist then appropriated by Nazis. The artist then posted that he was outraged and disappointed that it was taken over by Nazis. people listened and were also outraged and did everything to normalize and take it back from the Nazis, because again it wasn’t theirs to take in the first place. now you imagine the 12 year old posting it are nazis when they have no context of any of the events your talking about. go touch grass, your brain is rotting.
We should turn their name into an extreme political symbol symbol on the opposite side of their political spectrum. That way they’ll know that they’re also evil because they use that evil symbol.
So then, you think Nazi Swastikas without context should be allowed without any repercussions.
That’s incoherent. “Nazi swastika” and “without context” doesn’t mesh because “Nazi” is a context for “swastika”.
That aside, I’m going to take German law as an example: No, non-nazi swastikas are very much not outlawed. You can see them on stray Hindu temples or shrines in the country, for example. “Without” context they’re generally assumed to be Nazi ones over here because historical context, also, only Nazis draw random swastikas over here. You also see ones broken in pieces getting thrown in the trash or in a crossed-out circle, those come from the Antifa side.
Both the Hindu and Antifa uses are legal, the Nazi ones aren’t. That’s because German law doesn’t outlaw the swastika as such, it outlaws “using symbols of unconstitutional or outlawed organisations in a manner suitable to further their aims”. A Nazi painting a Swastika on a Jewish gravestone is considered furthering the aims of the NSDAP, which had the swastika as their logo. A Hindu chiselling a swastika into their gravestone is a completely different matter. (Do Hindus use gravestones? Anyway doesn’t matter it’s a hypothetical example).
In another country, where the historical context is different, those “without” context swastikas won’t be interpreted the same as in Germany. So even under German law those would arguably be legal, there.
At which point did I defend Putin or Xi in this conversation? I used the same argument as you did to argue that there’s Nazi sympathetic fighters in the Ukrainian armed forces.
Would you defend soldiers fighting side by side Nazi symbols?
So are you saying nazi leadership in Ukraine isn’t nazi?
As you clearly appear to be unaware, Ukraine is not under “Nazi Leadership.” That’s something you were told in order to justify Russia’s attempts to conquer them for their resources and expand their own borders just as they have in the past.
There it is! Tankies are so “reasonable” being aligned with authoritarian warmongers. Idk why you proclaim to be so against nazis when you share so much of your ideology with them.
You acknowledge pepe the frog as an alt right fascist symbol on Internet memes. But when armed forces in Ukraine use SS and black sun on their garment, you think it’s fine. Did west reclaim swastika and other nazi symbols, then?
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You’re right. Hey lemmy, lets all accommodate this one guys specific likes and dislikes so he doesn’t get his lil feels hurt!
It’s too atomized in this part of the world for anything you’re saying to take with these ‘people’. Asking a westerner to have human empathy is like asking an Israeli to not be genocidal trash. You’re better served asking a pigeon to not shit on your car.
If you let them dictate what is theirs, they’ll take everything.
Lmao, what a wild assumption that they could take whatever icons they like, with no basis in reality.
that’s…. exactly what they do buddy. you don’t seem the type to care for counter-examples so i won’t even try and list any of the many, many fucking instances of this happening irl
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Just off the top of my head those are a few. And that’s with people holding the line and continuing to use these symbols without hate. We don’t need more people defending their claims.
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The only person in this thread who seems intent on pepe being about hate speech is you. I’ve been asked in some formal settings to avoid using the OK hand sign in case it sends the wrong message. I’ve been advised by tattoo artists to avoid Nordic symbols despite the fact that I’m of Scandinavian descent. You’re enabling the worst kind of people to decide what symbols mean in our culture. Why?
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Degenerate, 88, 14, the Roman salute, multiple names, the fascista, shaven heads, lighting motifs, runic symbols.
That’s just what I came up with off the top of my head. The other person is right, and I say we should reclaim every symbol because those fuckers shouldn’t be allowed to call anything their own or have anything to ralley around or identify each other with. The only symbol I’m aware of that the made was the black sun which is itself simply the ss symbol repeated around a circle, which itself is an appropriated rune.
Reclaim every symbol.
I do believe 88 was just 2x the 8th letter of the alphabet which is H, which was short for what they say in the Hitlergruß.
This is a perfectly reasonable explanation to me and fits too well for this to seem like a coincidence.
I believe that’s correct, yes.
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I’m a mathematician. 88 is a number. You think letting them have an entire number isn’t damaging?
That’s your position. Not mine. They can’t have shit, because I won’t let them
An icon represents what the people think it represents.
An icon can also have different meanings to different people. It’s ok if you don’t like it. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that the majority of people that use or share Pepe are from one specific ideological group
Myself and a great many people associate it with hate speech and you’re continuing to use it regardless. That tells more about you than me.
I’m just gonna go ahead and say ratio’d. And yes, I’ve read all of the discourse ITT.
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Lmao buddy your meme policing isn’t “harsh reality” it’s useless slacktivism.
Almost every meme template has been used to make alt-right nonsense, do we just abandon any symbol they pick up for their misdeeds? Or do we push back and refuse to allow them that kind of control over our culture?
Very few and far between were exclusive to the right. Pepe was. It started as theirs and continued to be theirs for a long time, in my opinion still continues to be theirs. You few fighting for the symbol’s continued use in good faith (if you are) are not the majority.
It certainly did not start as theirs.
It started as a french cartoon and got coopted into the feelsbadman meme format in 2009 and then skyrocketed in popularity and mainstream use in 2015-2016 by pro-trump conservatives.
Even if it were present in every single greentext like some sort of bizarre requirement, it still would have more use by nazis and propogandists than anyone else.
I understand. It is inaccurate to say it started as a far-right icon.
the swastika was originally a religious icon used and still used in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jianism, i wouldn’t consider them Nazis… Context matters
Its even older than that actually. The oldest recorded use of the swastika is from around 13.000 BCE. Here is a good article by the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210816-the-ancient-symbol-that-was-hijacked-by-evil
Imagine unironically saying we should normalize nazi swastikas. If that’s not what it takes for you to reevaluate your stance, then you’re a lost cause.
the symbol predates Germany, initial findings date it back to 3300-1300 BC. you’re telling me all historical religious symbols in Asian countries should wiped of the icon because of Nazis misappropriating their symbol? you would literally deface ancient sites that predate nazis by thousands of years because you can only see it as a symbol of hate?
you can use context clues such as actual hate speech, nazi slogans and genocide to distinguish those that are actually racist. the whole point of nazism is to erase culture and replace it with only the “one true race”. by allowing nazis and white supremacists to appropriate symbols you’re actively giving them power.
So then, you think Nazi Swastikas without context should be allowed without any repercussions. I saw your first comment, I don’t see why you think using more words to say the same thing would make it any different.
Here are some questions: How does punishing nazis for using symbols of hate and intolerance empower them? How does allowing them to do so freely harm them in contrast?
You do not need to use a nazi swastika. A world where they are not allowed in public is a world where people feel safe and comfortable. Just as you do not need to use the frog. The frog is unimportant and only continues to exist because people like you fight for it.
literally my first comment said context matters. if you see an image with hate speech maybe its the speech that you should pay attention to.
Yes, again, I’ve read your comments and understood them. Maybe you’re the one having comprehension troubles, here?
I don’t see how this comment in any way argues against any of my statements. You either never disagreed with me to begin with about swastikas being bannable outside of specific religious contexts, or you want contextless hate speech to be allowed as a blanket rule. There is no in-between.
is English your first language because you either don’t understand what I’m saying or you are too ignorant to understand.
that’s literally what i said. the context around the symbol is what is important. no one in south west asia sees a swastika and think Nazis because it’s part of the religious culture. just as no one sees Pepe and thinks nazis because no one normal participated in that shit subculture of 4chan except Nazis.
Let’s actually look at what happened with Pepe, he was created by an artist then appropriated by Nazis. The artist then posted that he was outraged and disappointed that it was taken over by Nazis. people listened and were also outraged and did everything to normalize and take it back from the Nazis, because again it wasn’t theirs to take in the first place. now you imagine the 12 year old posting it are nazis when they have no context of any of the events your talking about. go touch grass, your brain is rotting.
We should turn their name into an extreme political symbol symbol on the opposite side of their political spectrum. That way they’ll know that they’re also evil because they use that evil symbol.
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That’s incoherent. “Nazi swastika” and “without context” doesn’t mesh because “Nazi” is a context for “swastika”.
That aside, I’m going to take German law as an example: No, non-nazi swastikas are very much not outlawed. You can see them on stray Hindu temples or shrines in the country, for example. “Without” context they’re generally assumed to be Nazi ones over here because historical context, also, only Nazis draw random swastikas over here. You also see ones broken in pieces getting thrown in the trash or in a crossed-out circle, those come from the Antifa side.
Both the Hindu and Antifa uses are legal, the Nazi ones aren’t. That’s because German law doesn’t outlaw the swastika as such, it outlaws “using symbols of unconstitutional or outlawed organisations in a manner suitable to further their aims”. A Nazi painting a Swastika on a Jewish gravestone is considered furthering the aims of the NSDAP, which had the swastika as their logo. A Hindu chiselling a swastika into their gravestone is a completely different matter. (Do Hindus use gravestones? Anyway doesn’t matter it’s a hypothetical example).
In another country, where the historical context is different, those “without” context swastikas won’t be interpreted the same as in Germany. So even under German law those would arguably be legal, there.
Have you met lemmygrad.ml?
What about them?
You don’t have to explain why fascist symbols are bad, there. You might find most lemmygraders to be pretty reasonable.
Lmfao, go suck Putin’s/Jinping’s dick elsewhere.
mournfully flipping the counter back to “0” on the “it has been X days since a turbolib said something deeply homophobic” sign
What’s homophobic about calling you morons submissives for dictators?
At which point did I defend Putin or Xi in this conversation? I used the same argument as you did to argue that there’s Nazi sympathetic fighters in the Ukrainian armed forces.
Would you defend soldiers fighting side by side Nazi symbols?
As you clearly appear to be unaware, Ukraine is not under “Nazi Leadership.” That’s something you were told in order to justify Russia’s attempts to conquer them for their resources and expand their own borders just as they have in the past.
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There it is! Tankies are so “reasonable” being aligned with authoritarian warmongers. Idk why you proclaim to be so against nazis when you share so much of your ideology with them.
You acknowledge pepe the frog as an alt right fascist symbol on Internet memes. But when armed forces in Ukraine use SS and black sun on their garment, you think it’s fine. Did west reclaim swastika and other nazi symbols, then?